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Hecate0 (4 stories) (418 posts)
 
5 years ago (2015-07-28)
Manfon and Tweed, also spooking them might add energy to them making them more vocal, like when we get a startle reaction (fight or flight response), all of our energy gets mobilized. Ours is related to the sympathetic nervous system. I wonder what would drive their "startle" response?
Tweed (28 stories) (2287 posts)
 
5 years ago (2015-07-28)
Manafon, if only the more scientifically minded among society took this sort of thing seriously. I think we'd be, at the very least, at the verge of figuring out some awesome things!
Manafon (4 stories) (74 posts)
 
5 years ago (2015-07-28)
Tweed--I think you are on to something about the action of spooking them letting down their auditory vocal defenses. Like an aspect of their concentration has been interrupted. Very interesting idea. Too bad we can't just ask them if that is the case!
Tweed (28 stories) (2287 posts)
 
5 years ago (2015-07-28)
The general vibe of a conversation in an unknown language often becomes clear later. This sort of happened to me as well. In the moment I assumed it was general low rumblings of a day to day topic. But afterwards I realised I was doing something near the voices, and probably disrupted them. They may have been expressing annoyance or confusion, possibly fear at my close proximity. As I hardly did anything there at that time of day, or evening as it were. As soon as I moved away the tone changed, to more relaxed.
I didn't analyze it at the time. It wasn't until the next day when I thought 'oh whoops, sorry guys!'

Perhaps there's something in our spooking them which causes them to, maybe unwittingly, become audible to us.
Manafon (4 stories) (74 posts)
+1
5 years ago (2015-07-28)
Bibliothecarius--I can remember the voices quite clearly. I did initially consider them to be somewhat aggressive but through a comment by Tweed I realized it was probably just the alien nature of the voices. The very inhuman timbre and pitch.

I have a degree in cultural anthropology and have listened to literally hours upon hours of obscure human languages for the information conveyed by rhythm, pitch, volume and so on. The voices were like nothing I have ever heard before and I listened to them for a good spell. Tweed was probably correct that they were merely discussing the new people in the house and nothing more.

Thanks for your interest!
Bibliothecarius (8 stories) (1039 posts)
+2
5 years ago (2015-07-28)
Manafon, it was a pleasure.
Pay attention to the speed and rhythm of the language, if you hear it again. Humans can tell if a bird's song is agitated, so if you listen to the tonal qualities, you may be able to intuit the general flow of the conversation.
Here's hoping!

Hecate, you're very kind! I'll admit I'm fortunate to teach in a high school which allows me a great deal of autonomy in the classroom, so I get to approach the texts like a 100-level college class (I aim for a 200-level survey with my AP Lit). I have the only job I've ever really wanted.

Take care,
-Biblio.
Manafon (4 stories) (74 posts)
+1
5 years ago (2015-07-27)
Bibliothecarius--Thanks for your insight! I completely agree, especially in retrospect, that the elementals I heard that night were more perplexed than upset or angry. It was the unexpected nature and sound of the voices that initially made me think there was something other than a quizzical intent.

If I am ever lucky enough to hear similar voices again I will definitely try to detect as much detail as possible!
Hecate0 (4 stories) (418 posts)
+1
5 years ago (2015-07-27)
Biblio, I knew we needed you. 😊 You say that so succinctly. I wish you were in Arizona. I would love to have you guest lecture in my class. 😁 I would love to take a class from you. I bet you are fascinating in class. Your students are very lucky.

Hecate
Bibliothecarius (8 stories) (1039 posts)
+3
5 years ago (2015-07-27)
Greetings, Manafon.

(Hi, everyone! Hecate, I was really enjoying the comments discussion when I discovered that it's rather nice to have been missed.)

Just a few quick thoughts on what you heard, Manafon. (They will be brief; I was up to paragraph 5 of a detailed explanation when my phone cut out and I was too tired last night to start over.)

1. Individuals communicate because they need to share information.

2. Grammar & syntax reduce miscommunication.

3. The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis (linguistic relativism, NOT linguistic determinism): the way individuals habitually use language shapes the way they conceive of their world.

4. What would supernatural entities want/need to discuss?
a. Boundaries?
b. Changes?
c. Danger?
d. Geography?
e. Meteorology?
f. Ownership?
g. Power?
h. Sustenance?
i. Threats?
j. Weakness?

5. Any syntactical structure within a putative fae language would need to address the priorities of that species first, then evolve as their growing awareness was shaped by new experiences.

6. As we are limited in our comprehension of their activities to millennia of mythologized eye-witness events, we have only the general outline of behavior patterns to employ as a cultural template to their activities.

7. Given that all language is metaphorical (even onomatopoeic!), I'd hazard a guess that elementals, such as the Tomten, were speaking in a more perplexed than upset state.

Best,
-Biblio.
Manafon (4 stories) (74 posts)
+1
5 years ago (2015-07-21)
Tweed--I listened to the sample you provided the link for. I think the reason the Ragnarsdrapa sample reminded a bit more of the voices I heard has something to do with the delivery of the interpreter. His speaking is a touch more "natural" on that piece. I believe somewhere on that Norse site he talks about how he recorded his Norse voice samples over an extended period of time and naturally the later examples are more "fluent".

That said, the sample you found similar to the voices you have heard in your garden are still quite close to what I heard. Very cool indeed!
Tweed (28 stories) (2287 posts)
 
5 years ago (2015-07-21)
Val thanks so much for finding that link!
Sounds like a mixture of Spanish and French, in the pronunciation.
Just out of interest, Manafon the sample here:
Https://notendur.hi.is/haukurth/norse/sounds/vell1no.mp3
...matches more to what I heard, than the Ragnarsdrapa sample. Jeesh, there's something undoubtedly familiar about this.
Hecate0 (4 stories) (418 posts)
 
5 years ago (2015-07-20)
Thanks for the link, Valkricry. Manafon's confirmation really allows us to feel this experience. And I will be thinking about the language thing all day. Rook, nice job! 😊 I love a good juicy thought topic.
Manafon (4 stories) (74 posts)
+1
5 years ago (2015-07-20)
valkricry--Thanks for sending that link to the Norse site! The reconstructed Norse samples on the site were very interesting. One that seemed close to what I heard was the second sample--the First Stanza of Ragnarsdrapa. If the timbre and pitch were higher--with that elfin quality I heard--it is in the same ballpark sound-wise. I was surprised at how similar these Norse reconstructions were to what I heard. Of course the guy doing these reconstructions admits much of his pronunciation is guesswork and that he is far from fluent. Obviously, if creatures like the tomten use languages like ancient Norse they WOULD be fluent! Thanks again for the link. Fascinating.
valkricry (45 stories) (3092 posts) mod
+2
5 years ago (2015-07-20)
Manafron,
Well, for what it's worth (not much - lol) anyone interested in learning old Norse can go to this site: https://notendur.hi.is/haukurth/norse/. It's free (you don't even have to sign up) and does include some sound clips. I thought the recordings might help you determine if it's similar to what you heard.
Manafon (4 stories) (74 posts)
+1
5 years ago (2015-07-20)
rookdygin--Your thought that the postulated language or languages of nature spirits could predate that of humanity and therefore have influenced it or even created it is big time food for thought. Like a banquet 😁 It is a great possibility. It would be fascinating if someone at some point can capture these voices on tape. The linguists of the world would have a field day!
Hecate0 (4 stories) (418 posts)
+2
5 years ago (2015-07-20)
I am just catching up on this language topic. We need Biblio here, too. This is fun... I study how we process language but I do not know different ones, nor their origins. A linguist I am not.

I think Rook is spot on with the idea that their language is likely to predate ours. The Scandinavian roots are interesting, as is your adventure there, Rook. There are likely to be many languages in spirit since ancient languages would still be used and perhaps even morphed into new ones as entities remain longer than the living. Imagine being a spirit attached to a house and hearing conversations 300 ago through the present. Imagine all of it, the fashion, hairstyle, kitchen colors, etc. All gradually changing. I think the 'experience' of energies in that dimension is fascinating.

Thanks for the fun conversations here! 😊

Hecate
rookdygin (24 stories) (4458 posts)
+1
5 years ago (2015-07-20)
Tweed,

The opening was 10-12 feet high and the entire entrance was 15-18 feet across... Roughly shaped like an archway... Funny thing was it had bars across the entrance so you could not enter it... I wonder who was protecting who?

Respectfully,

Rook
Tweed (28 stories) (2287 posts)
 
5 years ago (2015-07-20)
Oh wow Rook, that sounds like a magical location.😊 I hope you still have those rocks. What did the cave look like?

(PS: I should have said 'I love that Skogen *has* a name'. Seems a bit silly speaking of an entity in past tense.)
rookdygin (24 stories) (4458 posts)
 
5 years ago (2015-07-20)
Tweed,

It's a topic worth pondering... Helps pass the time.

I got to visit Norway while in the Navy and while I did not see any Fey I was able to visit some beautful places where I could very well believe they lived in or at the very least around. We did Port visits of Stavsnger and Kristiansand and while on a 'walk about' around Stavanger I found what I beleived to be a Troll cave... Very cool. I asked for... And it felt like a received permission, to take a couple of rocks from the front of the cave home. Wish I could have stayed longer... (sigh)

Respectfully,

Rook
Tweed (28 stories) (2287 posts)
 
5 years ago (2015-07-20)
ahh Rook, Triskaideka and Manafon this language detail is simply fascinating! I've pondered the same before and Rook, I think you're onto something with their language predating ours. It makes sense!
I love that Skogen had a name. 😊
rookdygin (24 stories) (4458 posts)
+4
5 years ago (2015-07-20)
Triskaideka,

Opinion here... Simply my opinion here but if we base a 'Spirit', or more on topic, a 'Fey' Language Theory' on the premise they exsisited before us could we not extrapolate from there that OUR spoken languages are based upon theirs?

(Heh 😉 I used extrapolate in a sentence...LoL)

Just a thouhgt.

Respectfully,

Rook
Manafon (4 stories) (74 posts)
+1
5 years ago (2015-07-20)
Triskaideka--I have been thinking about those voices a lot lately after recounting this event. In many ways the voices sounded like what could have been ancient Norse. It sounded ancient if that makes sense. It would be great if someone with a background in linguistics could hear these voices!

All best wishes to Skogen 😁
Tweed (28 stories) (2287 posts)
 
5 years ago (2015-07-20)
LOL! Triskaideka that is too funny and true! Probably accounts for half the experiences on here! 😆
Triskaideka (2 stories) (388 posts)
+2
5 years ago (2015-07-20)
My Hoiland family likes to believe they harbored a troll over here from Norway. He retired in Montana and turned into a gnarled old tree (or maybe he lives in the tree because he can hide among its branches). His name was (is?) Skogen. 😊

Wonder what their language would be based upon. In fact, I wonder what all the languages in the spirit world stem from. Of course, certain languages would be image-only or idea-only, no words. But this linguist is drooling over the idea of studying paranormal languages and making connections between them.
Manafon (4 stories) (74 posts)
+5
5 years ago (2015-07-19)
Triskaideka--You probably weren't too far off on what they were saying! Maybe somewhere down the line (the next life maybe?) there will be a Rosetta's Stone for the Tomten language 😁 Whatever they were saying they were deep in discussion. When I woke up it seemed like the conversation had been going on for awhile.

Valcricry--I love the thought of two foot Tomten from this incident following the couple who retired to Florida. From frigid Scandinavia to the toasty beaches of Florida! "I like the human we're attached to" one tomtem comments to the other. "I like Mai Tai's" the other tomten replies. And a new life in Florida begins! 😜
valkricry (45 stories) (3092 posts) mod
+1
5 years ago (2015-07-19)
Oooops! My mistake, I meant Triskaideka's imagined exchange between the Tomtens. Not Hectate. Sorry.
valkricry (45 stories) (3092 posts) mod
+4
5 years ago (2015-07-19)
Geeze - maybe I shouldn't read comments before composing my own - Hectate had me giggling so hard I almost forgot what I wanted to say!
Tomten (aka Tomte) is also the Swedish word for Santa Claus. Just thought I'd toss that into the mix. 😊 It is said, that if they take a particular liking to a family or clan, they will move with them as they see themselves as guardians of that family. Of course no one is sure of the life span of a tomte, but I've heard they will stay with a family for generations. Perhaps these tomtens are now in Florida?
Hecate0 (4 stories) (418 posts)
+2
5 years ago (2015-07-19)
Triskaideka, I am with zzgranny on this. THAT was HYSTERICAL! 😆 😆

Thank you!

Best to you,
Hecate
zzsgranny (18 stories) (3326 posts) mod
+1
5 years ago (2015-07-19)
Triskaideka: I actually LOL'd at your comment. 😆 😆

Onlytenmoreneeded.
Triskaideka (2 stories) (388 posts)
+9
5 years ago (2015-07-19)
Here's the conversation I picture:
"Why did you turn off the light in his presence? Now they'll know we're here."
"Calm down, I'm sure he'll just think it was a random event."
"No, he'll totally know we're here!"
"Well good, then perhaps he'll start turning off lights before leaving rooms or going to sleep."
"You can't just mess with their things in their presence. We don't want the humans to know about us!"
"Calm down. It's really not a big deal."
"It IS a big deal! If they get rid of us, we can't do our jobs."
"They won't get rid of us."
"Remember cousin Jimmy? He got ousted from HIS house all because he moved a towel from the top of someone's burner."
"He did more than just that. Those people were idiots and kept leaving things in dangerous places."
"But now he can't protect them AT ALL because he was too obvious."
"We sent someone else there."
"They went unwatched for TWO WEEKS. They could have burned the whole house down!"
"Which is why he had to move the towel."
"I don't think you're understanding my point."
"I do understand your point. I disagree with it."
"Ugh how did we wind up assigned to the same house? You're impossible."

Etc.
😆
Hecate0 (4 stories) (418 posts)
 
5 years ago (2015-07-16)
Manafon and Tweed, this has been VERY interesting. I like your description and conclusions about the lore associated with these little guys, Tweed. I study language (metaphor mapping), both human and across species (non-verbal mostly for other species). I would have loved to hear this language. I am still enjoying this story. Thanks for sharing, Manafon.

I had been doing healing for several years before a friend pointed out my HECate name. Coincidence? Perhaps... 😜
Manafon (4 stories) (74 posts)
 
5 years ago (2015-07-16)
Tweed--I read about the supposed killing of livestock by the Tomten if they felt somehow slighted but I agree with you that it's probably human faults and issues being transferred to the nature spirit. I feel quite convinced through your thoughts and what I have now read that I did encounter the Tomten, or something quite like them. Nature spirits/elementals exist but like anything else are prone, by human misinterpretation and ignorance, to aquire attributes that have nothing to do with them.

Heacate0--I dig the genesis of your name!
Tweed (28 stories) (2287 posts)
+2
5 years ago (2015-07-16)
Oh cool! I'm so happy to see the Tomten link is shaping up to fit into place here! That's very intriguing about the home owners!

I've seen these little guys, or if not something similar, a couple times. I keep meaning to submit these accounts but I have too much fun reading stories on here!

Tomten don't necessarily want everything to be super neat and tidy. But they hate any sudden changes to their home, without their prior 'consent'. This includes animals, which they care for and watch over. If these guys you heard were Tomten it makes sense they'd be discussing you in the middle of the night, though I'm sure they would have worked out you were connected to the Basset Hound and there in this capacity. But being temperamental little guys, you and your wife's presence probably raised their eyebrows all the same lol!

Throughout time the legend of the Tomten was linked to horses having their manes platted overnight. Stable owners would find their horses with wavy groomed manes. This turned out to be the doing of humidity (I think), but there are still some people today who swear it goes beyond anything the atmosphere could do.

There's some nasty business about Tomten killing live stock when they feel they've been wronged by people. Then later feel terrible that they overreacted and try to right their wrongs. Personally I feel this is rubbish and more human paranoia and reading way too much into, say, the misfortune of farmers. Because a nature spirit, who cares for animals as much as the Tomten, wouldn't turn around and kill an animal just to get back at a human. Makes no sense!
Hecate0 (4 stories) (418 posts)
+1
5 years ago (2015-07-16)
Manafon, Thank you! This place is full of fun people. Please stay. My Hecate "name" is exactly my first, last and middle initial... After all of my healing (I have stories here detailing that) - my parents had named me after historical metaphysical entities who send energy from a distance. Life is cool.

Hecate
Manafon (4 stories) (74 posts)
+2
5 years ago (2015-07-16)
Manfon, Manafon...what's in a name 😜 My user name here was just because I liked the sound of it. It's the title of an album by David Sylvian.
Hecate0 (4 stories) (418 posts)
 
5 years ago (2015-07-16)
Manafon - sorry - when you get to preview, there is no place to see the name of the author. 😊
Hecate0 (4 stories) (418 posts)
 
5 years ago (2015-07-16)
Manfon... Mostly thanks to Tweed. She was spot on when she sent you to the Scandinavian culture's view on elementals/imps/gnomes - very cool. I would never have one of these in my house. Granted, I am not of Scandinavian origin, but tidiness, well, no one has accused me of that in a very long time. 😆

Manfon, it is fun to get stories here that generate cool ideas. Keep us updated.

Hecate
Manafon (4 stories) (74 posts)
 
5 years ago (2015-07-16)
Tweed and Hecate0--Two more bits of interest regarding the Tomten theory. Reading what I could find online, it is mentioned that the Tomten have the ability to become invisible. This could explain how I continued to hear the two voices briefly after I turned the light on.

Second, it struck me that the Tomten mythology is of Scandinavian origin and the owner of the home this incident transpired in was indeed of Scandinavian heritage. I wonder of this particular tomten was checking on his human friend and was confused when two other people were discovered in the bed. It was mentioned that the Tomten love order, tidiness and discipline and the couple who owned the house possessed these qualities and by extension their house was a place a tomten would feel "at home" in. Food for thought! Gotta say I'm digging this new avenue of thought on this incident. It's all thanks to YGS.
Manafon (4 stories) (74 posts)
+1
5 years ago (2015-07-15)
Tweed--I looked up Tonten and read they are a pre-Christian race of spirit beings that are related to the English gnome. I have to say their height and that they become "household familiars" lined up nicely to what I heard. Completely fascinating. I had never heard of these creatures before but I will be reading what info I can find on them. Thanks again for pointing me in their direction.

Tweed and Hecate0--I plan on writing up my "elemental" account this weekend when I have a bit of time. Thanks to both of you for expressing an interest.
Hecate0 (4 stories) (418 posts)
+2
5 years ago (2015-07-15)
Manafon, I second the request for your elemental story. I know 'of' them but have no direct experience. I always love hearing people's accounts (thank you, Tweed). And I meant to mention this earlier, but your story was very well written, very fun to read. I hope you also do other writing.

Looking forward to hearing more from you.

Hecate 😊
Tweed (28 stories) (2287 posts)
+1
5 years ago (2015-07-15)
Manafon I'd love to read your elemental story if you want to submit it! Glad I could be of some help, Tomten are fascinating little creatures!
Manafon (4 stories) (74 posts)
+1
5 years ago (2015-07-15)
Tweed--I was thinking what I heard might have been an elemental/nature spirit too! I was astounded to hear you had an experience with similar voices. I will have to look up Tomten. As for the lightswitch incident, I took it completely as a friendly gesture. A kind of, "You forgot to turn this off" sort of thing.

You may be right about the glass half empty analogy. I will admit that, having never heard guttural voices like that before in a darkened room that were so completely alien, probably had me assuming without further evidence, that they were unfriendly. In retrospect, I can see how they just may have spoken that way and that they very well might have just been curious about the two people in the bed! I have had one other encounter with what I believe was an elemental (which I will write about here at some point) but that creature didn't speak. The elemental theory could also explain why I never experienced anything paranormal in the house during many earlier visits. Thanks for your extremely helpful theory. It works for me!

Hecate0--Your question about whether the house was near woods was spot on. Indeed the house is in a quite heavily wooded area with some very old trees. The town, by the way, is Hinsdale, Illinois.

As for asking the one time owners any questions, they moved to Florida over a year ago and the only contact I have with them is a Christmas e-card they send me every year. When I state the couple were "conservative" I mean that if they ever heard or saw anything "paranormal" in the house they would have either explained it away or assumed they imagined it. They were very nice people but not the types you would want to attempt a conversation with concerning supernatural incidents! Thanks for your input.
Tweed (28 stories) (2287 posts)
+4
5 years ago (2015-07-15)
Hi Manafon,

I've heard voices like The Shining 'redrum' part, in a nondescript language. I've heard them a few times over the years, but only outside in the garden. Like you, I can pin point the source/direction of the sound and it's always low to the ground, 2ft or so. I feel it to be nature spirits. So it's interesting that you wondered similarly about the Troll possibility with what you heard.
Who knows if it's the same entity we've heard, but it's been pretty darn astonishing to read your story!
I feel what I heard were Tomten, or an entity of that ilk. They are prone to coming into homes at night, they're nocturnal. Perhaps they were confused to find you and your wife in that bed.

Hope you don't take this the wrong way, but are you prone to see the glass half empty? I ask because if someone turned the lamp off for me, I would assume it was a good deed. Likewise, waking up to hear voices, I would naturally wonder if they were talking about me, but not necessarily against me. So I'm wondering if there was a feeling about these two incidents, lamp and voices, a feeling you couldn't shake that it was ill intended. Or that it might have been your own emotional filter putting it into that context.

Thanks so much for sharing!
Hecate0 (4 stories) (418 posts)
+2
5 years ago (2015-07-15)
Manafon, I agree with Lady-glow about getting more information about the house. I would also check the land before he house. The voices could still be anything. But, elementals, especially if the location is near forest or lake or some other place in nature that carries power, even ley lines or vortices. Too bad their health declined of course, but it would be great if you could query the homeowners about their experiences, even if they seemed terribly conservative. Thanks for sharing.

Hecate
Manafon (4 stories) (74 posts)
+1
5 years ago (2015-07-15)
Thanks for your comment lady-glow. I had a neighbor years ago who had had a tracheotomy. He was always inviting my wife and me over to chat and I was able to understand him over time. He always said (a bit unpleasant I know) that he spoke with a series of burps. The voices I heard at the house that night were higher pitched. I should also add that the voices seemed to be coming from the height of the bed, so two feet or so off the ground. They were so distinct that I could pinpoint exactly where they were coming from.

Someday it would be interesting to try to research the house. It is a couple towns away from where I live and I presently have little time to devote to doing that due to work. Thanks again for your comment!
lady-glow (12 stories) (2687 posts)
+2
5 years ago (2015-07-15)
Manafon: thanks for sharing this good read.
Based on the information in your story it is hard to tell who or what was taking that night, specially since you didn't see anything.
Your description of the sound of the voices makes me think of the way a person talks after the performance of a tracheotomy, it is very hard to understand what they say if you are not used to their way of talking. 😐

I guess the only way to know the answer would be to research the history of the house and its previous owners back to the day it was built.

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