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whitebuffalo (guest)
14 years ago (2008-12-10)
Ah, but then we throw into the mix the differences between the Old and the New Testaments.
BOTH sections of the Bible are important. There are those that look upon the Old Testament as merely a history book. It tells the beautiful story of Creation and reminds us of the days of Christian Persecution. It warns us of our misdeeds, and implores us to turn around, take a look. We screwed up here in the past too. It is a MAP of our past mistakes, and a bit of a "background" into what it is that Christians do NOW, and WHY.
In the New Testament, the main difference is (well, OBVIOUSLY besides the fact that it tells the story of Christmas, and the Son of God's birth in human form) there was no longer a need for the sacrificial lamb. Jesus Christ stepped in and took over that when He humbled Himself before His Father and allowed for the Kiss of Betrayal from one of His closest friends, Judas Iscariot (which, by the by, in Luke 22 verse 3 states rather clearly that "Satan entered Judas". I should say THAT was a good example of possession).
It has ALWAYS been my thought (Yep, MY OPINION) that Catholics do not "pray" to the statues and the images of the Saints. They DO, however (with the exception of the Virgin Mary) use them as a... You know, Rook probably said this much better than the words that are forming themselves in my head right now.
But it is like when the beloved Uncle of our children pass. We, in trying to keep our children centered, sometimes tell our children to TALK TO THEM, they will hear. FOR ME (yep, another opinion) that is exactly what it is that Catholics do according to the Saints. It is as if they were someone really close to us (well, they WERE human, and they were ALSO fellow believers) that we STILL RESPECT enough to acknowledge.
The Virgin Mary is a different story.
OOOH My, to be the Mother of the Son of God! WHAT a trying situation. This poor woman lived out all her adult life with the knowledge that her first born was to be taken from her and crucified for the salvation of all who would accept Him.
Can you IMAGINE? I probably never really DID until I became a Mother myself. How STRONG her FAITH would have HAD to have been.
It is MY thoughts that there is an extreme reverence, honor and respect given to Mary. She is HONORED for ALL that she "gave up". She was ostracized as she was a never married pregnant woman, she dealt with those who would have issues with Jesus' teachings as a youngster, AND she WATCHED her son be killed.

I really did not come on here to point all that out. Rook, you just got me thinking (Thank you).
I spent the day thinking back on all me classes, and looking through old text books. Then I read through all of this again.
We missed something.
A BIG something.
In all of my classes, in all of what I was taught (anyone who KNOWS me knows that just because I was "taught" something DOES NOT mean that I am in total agreement with it), and what I have learned from my own research and experiences, NEVER was I ever subjected to the words (in the Holy Bible) "the only way to salvation is through the Catholic Church."
There is NO substitution for the Truth, and the truth is written in John 14:6. "Jesus said unto him, I am the Way, the Truth and the Light. NO ONE comes unto the Father except through me."

The Truth, and the Truth only, will set you free.
Thank you.
rookdygin (24 stories) (4458 posts)
14 years ago (2008-12-10)
I will start where I thought to start, by addressing the practice of praying to the Saints. Until I really researched this I was of the 'snap judgment' that this was really idol worship, but because I said I would present well thought out facts I did some research... From the sites you provided Peter, and some help form either Wikipedia or an old fashioned set of encyclopedias. That led me to another train of thought all together and more research. So here are my conclusions on this matter:

I understand about praying to Saint's for intercession, the Faithful simply want a spirit closer to Heavenly Father than they are to ask favor be shown to one who is praying in and with good Faith. This I can understand, this is not 'idol worship' but it does make me wonder:

(Time for some Biblical quotes)

Leviticus 19:31
"Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God"

Leviticus 20:6
"I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people."

Deuteronomy 18:9-14
"When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God. The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do so."

Isaiah 8:19-20
"When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn."

I will stop with the quotes now. (I know there are those who will say... You can 'twist' any quote and make your point...) So I went from thinking 'Praying to Saints is Idol worship' to thinking something more along the lines of... 'If consulting the dead is considered an evil practice how can praying to the Saints for intersession be justified?" I point to Isaiah 8:19-20 at this point. (I know someone will make a statement like 'nothing done with Faith and in Heavenly Fathers name can be 'unjust' and I just want to say YES! My point exactly, if your heart is in the right place and you are motivated to do what is right, to follow the admonition of Paul... (this is a quote from my church...)

""We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul - We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or
Praiseworthy, we seek after these things.""

Now that I've said that I believe that Peter and Paul established the foundations of the Roman Catholic Church during there lives while they were teaching what they had learned from Christ. (Peter being the 'rock' the Church was to be built on... (ie: his teachings/ministry) This brings me to my next point:

(from peter1598) "That the Holy Roman Catholic Church remains is completely unexpectable, given human nature's proclivity to redefine, reform and digress down into one's own primal feelings. Witness, if you will, how many of you present your replies and rebuttals as "In my opinion," or "this is my opinion on myself alone," or "that's all that matters to me" and the like. And yet the Church was withstood for 2,000 years all the efforts of armies, diseases, political intrigue, monetary reversals, the Huns, the Goths, the Aryians, the communists... No matter WHAT the world has hurled against the Church, IT REMAINS AND ALL OTHER FORMS OF CHRISTIANITY DILUTE AND DISTILL INTO FRAGMENTS ATTEMPTING TO BE THE TRUTH, BUT FAILING AND DILUTING OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND REFORMING OVER AND OVER AND OVER. IS THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT DIVIDING THEOLOGY?"

While the Roman Catholic Church remains how much of it remains unchanged by those Faithful wishing to define it? (I'll only go with a couple of examples, really)

(From Wikipedia) "During the Catholic Reformation, the Council of Trent commissioned the Roman Catechism (or Catechism of the Council of Trent, published 1566) to expound doctrine and to improve the theological understanding of the clergy. It differs from other summaries of Christian doctrine for the instruction of the people in two points: it is primarily intended for priests having care of souls (ad parochos), and it enjoyed an authority within the Catholic Church equalled by no other catechism until the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1992). The need of a popular authoritative manual arose from a lack of systematic knowledge among pre-Reformation clergy and the concomitant neglect of religious instruction among the faithful."

And more here: "Catholic Catechisms, published by individuals existed as well. The Jesuit Petrus Canisius had published such a Catechism in 1555 in both German and Latin language. [1] The Council of Trent commissioned the first Church-wide Roman Catholic catechism. This catechism was directed to clergy. It included large parts of the Canisius catechisms including his addition to the Hail Mary: Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners."

It seems that between it beginnings and 1566 doctrine needed to be clarified and understood, and it is herein that my point lies... Man is fallible, he makes mistakes and because of this we can repent and be forgiven. Look at the above areas... We see lack of systematic knowledge, a concomitant neglect of religious instruction. To me this says that things have either been forgotten, or 'according to somebody' they are not being done correctly.

Then you have ""Catholic Catechisms, published by individuals" in which pieces were incorporated into the first Church-wide Roman Catholic catechism. (Council of Trent published 1566) It included and addition (ie: change) to the Hail Mary prayer.

I'm sorry but if what you have is Just, Pure and True and has remained so for 2,000 years then there is no need for changes and/or additions.

(One last quote from Wikipedia and I'm done here, I think)

""Although the Catholic Church maintains that it is the "one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church" founded by Jesus, it acknowledges that the Holy Spirit can make use of other Christian communities to bring people to salvation. The Church teaches that it is called by the Holy Spirit to work for unity among all Christians - a movement known as ecumenism.""

This struck me as odd, if it is the only True Church, then isn't it the Only way to be Saved?

This I feel is a bold testament to what most of here on YGS have been trying to say. If your heart is in the right place, if you are trying to help and to "choose the right" then you will do good things and good things will come to you. If however you are deliberately out to cause 'hate, havoc and discontent' then your heart is in the wrong place and you shall receive your full measure 'in kind'.

I know I used a lot of quotes from Wikipedia, but it is the easiest, reference to use, I did look in to my older 'bound' encyclopedia's here at the house to verify information at times.

At the end I think this says it all, ""Although the Catholic Church maintains that it is the "one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church" founded by Jesus, it acknowledges that the Holy Spirit can make use of other Christian communities to bring people to salvation.""

Let us all find our own 'Salvation' as we communicate, share ideas and help each other to understand things. It is a Great Big World out there and we are but a small part passing through on our own Journey to discover not only what is truly out there, but ourselves as well.



P.S. For those really paying attention I bet you can guess which Church I belong to.


DeviousAngel (11 stories) (1910 posts)
14 years ago (2008-12-10)
I completely agree with Autumn's very well-versed response. I also believe that since peter's drawn-out quoting of the Bible and hammering of us "heathens" merits a response from my general direction. 😆

Firstly, as Autumn said, the most illogical and irrational way to go about the conversion process is to harass, scare and attack people with the very book that you claim preaches the word of God--love, warmth, kindred spirit--all of these things are not present in your comments. What has drawn me particularly away from the Catholic church is that it is absurdly ritualistic and there is very little to no preaching of love. The Catholic church has preached so heavily of all the things that are wrong, and have contributed more than any other religion to the wrongful deaths of many, many people. More than any other church, the Catholic church experiences the most embarrassments among some of its most devout followers (corrupt priests, anyone?)

Which just restates a very profound lesson to me:

Jesus told the people to love one another--love thy neighbor--not to ridicule and condemn each other for each other's sins. God will be our ultimate judge, not you, not the church, not the priesthood. I believe the statement "do not covet thy neighbor's sins" should have been added to the list.

I appreciate your concern for saving our eternal souls, peter, but if that were truly your aim rather than the self-satisfaction of converting people to your vein of thinking, then you would convert people through LOVE rather than fear. If wanting to live my life based on light and love rather than all of this focus on demonology and fear and blood and killing brands me a heathen, then I'll gladly wear the title like a crown and be shunned by those who I wish not to have dictate how I should live my life to me.

Warmest blessings,

whitebuffalo (guest)
14 years ago (2008-12-10)
OOOOh, **rubbing hands together gleefully**
I am anxiously awaiting the research accumulation, Rook.
Thank you.
whitebuffalo (guest)
14 years ago (2008-12-10)
No need to rush...
I just thought you might find it a bit interesting.
I just sent it to you.
ChrisB (6 stories) (1515 posts)
14 years ago (2008-12-10)
Sure Automn you have my email adress. But please don't be mad if I don't write back today because I'm finishing work for today and my internet is let's just say"slow" at home. But I promise I will write back first thing in thge morning around 7.00.Wait in the Us it woul be what,1.00am 😆.Well when you wake up you will have it 😁
rookdygin (24 stories) (4458 posts)
14 years ago (2008-12-10)

(sheepish grin on his face) I went back to the beginning and saw that after I posted... Sorry.


Well met, and I must admit that my afore here to mentioned post was going to address your point about the Saints, when I realized that I said I was going to respond "in kind" to Peter's very solid, long and detailed post. It really deserves a solid, long and detailed reply and I couldn't do that without research... And that research lead me to more questions concerning certain things. I'm typing my 'post' in word perfect and when it's done I'll drop it in here.


whitebuffalo (guest)
14 years ago (2008-12-10)
Well THANK you, Mr. Chris (sorry, I HAD to do that, I caught Essie's answer to you a while back and was laughing with you). I am glad I gave someone a smile today.

It IS true. The only TRUE and FIRST religion was the religion of Adam and Eve. PRIOR to the first "bite" of sin.

May I post something to your e-mail that I think may make some of my comments a bit more clear to YOU?
Thank you.
ChrisB (6 stories) (1515 posts)
14 years ago (2008-12-10)
Automn what can I say? Jesus your smart 😁.You know I read your comment and wow you got me going. Honestley you said something that realy is true. Every religion has its true "facts" but we will never know until its our time. I think that the true religion. To believe in something and to have faith in something. Your right. Seeing isn't allways believing. It is what we want to believe in tthat is the most important:) Yep Automn you gave a smile on my face today. And I thank you for that 😁
whitebuffalo (guest)
14 years ago (2008-12-10)
... And I know you do not wish to answer, but what about the actual EXPERIENCE?
"I'm very sorry to all of you, but what happened happened..." I think there ARE a few of us out here that would like to know a bit more about THAT then what has been discussed.
I would.
Thank you.
whitebuffalo (guest)
14 years ago (2008-12-10)
Well, well,
Looks like that comment was directed to ME, now was it not, Peter?
I would personally like to start this comment out by saying I appreciate the prayers. I sure could use them, as could everyone else in this world. We are going through a transformation, of sorts, that I am SURE just about everyone can see, if not feel.
I WOULD like to SERIOUSLY add a request, but I think you would take that as a joke.

I do not joke about something as serious as my eternal soul, nor anyone else's.

I see that you have stated that this will be your one and only comment, and I am honestly sorry to hear that. I am not trying to argue with you, I was stating facts, as I know them.
You are absolutely right when you write that most of us said things like "personally" and "in my opinion"... The reason BEING that there is NO unquestionable way in which WE would know what the TRUE RELIGION is. Sure, Catholicism was ONE of the FIRST ones (there could be a rousing debate on that, as well, but I will leave it off this page. At least for now), but until we are in the arms of The Father, we are just as clueless as the next, and pray that we are on the right track.
All of us can look through the Holy Bible and the texts of our Elders to determine that OUR religion is "The One", there are concrete documented facts that show this to be "true" for all religions.

THAT is NOT an opinion, THAT is FACT.

I have no clue as to why you state "Sorry, Whitebuffalo, but my experience in being banned when I *REALLY* get going is not worth the effort..." Uh, banned from where? HERE?
That is not going to happen. YOU gave us license to discuss this by posting your experience, and choosing the slide out of "I will read the comments and participate in the discussion." Add to that, Martins comment (Hello *waving*) that states "feel free to have a heated debate." ONE response, is NOT a discussion, so I guess I do not understand that comment, too well.
And I guess it depends on what level of Hell you refer to when you state "you don't want to argue with someone who has experienced Hell and strives with all his might to convince others futilely."
As I stated: I AM NOT TRYING TO ARGUE. I was supplying facts, as I know them. "Futility" is something that ALL devout believers will experience, when reaching out to those who do not understand. It IS frustrating, and that is why it is SO important to LIVE what we BELIEVE. People will SEE the good works in you and BELIEVE.
Belittling comments, rising up in DEFENSE, staunchly refusing to answer legitimate questions, only serve to turn peoples heads AWAY from what it is that you desire them to know. IF you TRULY submitted this in order to help others see the err of the human way, perhaps your approach should have been a bit more genteel.

In assuming that NO ONE else has ever experienced the wall of resistance that you seem to have put yourself up against, you are making a grave generalization. Just because you do not see the inner turmoil experienced by others does not mean that you have been personally chosen to be (in your own words) "ridiculed, disparaged, dismissed and rebuked". As for MYSELF...
I never did that to you.
As I stated in my very first comment to this, your story, "I think MANY people on this site MAY be astounded to learn something out of my past, that I do not, as of yet, feel comfortable sharing. I am closer to this story line than what MANY would think..."
NOT only because my brother is a Priest, NOT only as my Father is a deacon, and mens pastorate, NOT only as my Mother is the womens teacher, or that my sister is an over seas missionary with her family...
I, TOO, have a background in Catholicism. A bit MORE than what it is that many on here know.

Thank you for teasing us with a response. I do appreciate it.

I also appreciate the prayers, as I initially stated. You shall also be in mine, and I will be sure and light a candle for you, as well. Rest assured, those are NOT idle words. It SHALL be done.
Thank you.
MOTHERPANN (10 stories) (77 posts)
14 years ago (2008-12-10)
Thank you for allowing us to post on this site regarding religion.

This is the second site that I have enjoyed writing on as well as reading other people's experiences. This one is regarding paranormal and the other UFO's and both have been "invaded" by persons trying to convert the readers in their religious beliefs. Paragraph after paragraph, bible quote after quote to the point of making others angry. Usually this causes people to be totally turned off to religion rather then embracing it. It is not a good way to win friends and influence people. I questioned the person on the other site as if he didn't believe what the heck was he doing on a ufo site and if he wanted to debate religion go find a blog on religion, but he persists to a point people are begging him to leave us alone. I do hope that this site does not have the same result. Yes I responded based on my beliefs and I do feel a need to respond once more with out using bible quotes. (lol)

Re catholic practices: a young man was forced to attend CCD classes and when the nun was teaching what being baptised by the Holy Spirit was this young man opened his bible and showed the nun that she was incorrect in her teaching and after reading what the bible said regarding the subject the nun's response was "Well that's not what I was taught". The boy said to her are you going to believe the bible or your teachers? And he was kicked out of class and told never to come back. The bible states you should not pray to idols and Jesus is the only bridge to God but my catholic friends pray to several Saints depending on what they want, the bible never told anyone to pray to Mary but catholics pray constantly to her and when questioned they said well she's Jesus' mother and she might intercede for us. Do you know that when I question catholics why they have ashes on their forehead (on Ash Wed) they respond because its ash wed and they don't know why but its a tradition to do so.
Once I asked my devout catholic friend that if her mom taught her to cook a turkey for 15 minute at 500 deg and the eat the cooked part and throw out the rest and then one day she received a cook book that told her to cook it 15 minute per pound at 350 and several hours later she would have a fully cooked bird would she throw out the book and say "that's not how I was taught" or would she read this book of instructions and learn the correct way? She choose to stay with what she was taught rather then read the bible and learn that most of her rituals were man/catholic made and not even in the bible.

That is why so many people have given up on catholics and what they preach.

I am not saying my religious beliefs are better or the only way but if a person is going to use the bible as God's handbook on how to live they must take it word for word, not add their own rituals, pick and choose what they want to follow and what they don't like and use God's word as the final say.

And if a person had different beliefs and want to keep their beliefs, do not keep hounding them and make them feel like they are going to burn in Hell. You have planted a seed let it grow and let the person choose to harvest it or plow in under.
FRAWIN (guest)
14 years ago (2008-12-09)
Rookdygin, Martin has already given his permission for a "debate" on this story. Feel free to post your response.

Luca (1 stories) (83 posts)
14 years ago (2008-12-09)
Hello Peter. Glad to see you're back!

Though I believe you've been avoiding inquiries, and probably will not answer, I must ask you, yet again: "Were you baptized?"

This sounds merely like a YES or NO question, but any and every Catholic here knows it is not so. Craddle-born Catholics are often baptized a few weeks after birth, with no other guidance except our parents. It is only after we learn what Catholicism means, that we comprehend what we are getting ourselves into.
But you, having grown up into an adult and converted, surely you did not only schedule your baptism without any guidance from a priest. It's like the First Communion, children learn the foundations of Catholicism during weeks of lessons from nuns and/or priests, before finally consuming the body of Christ. By now, you must know where I'm going with all this.

If you were baptized as an adult, you must've endured hours of teachings from priests, maybe even a few inquiries about why you wanted to convert and such. You would learn from these lessons, and practice everything, etching it into your daily life. And THAT, my friend, is the rock in which a wise man builds his house upon.

Furthermore, you would've practiced the other Sacraments, no? From what I can grasp, you've done your homework... Times ten. You've researched, and copy-pasted articles. You've claimed that those with a personal alternative opinion concerning the matters of the Church possess misinformation;I do not know if that includes Catholics as well. How in the world would you know about that? Do you completely understand the entire teachings of the Church? Do you completely understand each and every passage you copied? It is a mistery we only hope to understand; from where we stand, we are grasping the thin veil of dying uncertainty.

I strongly believe you should seek guidance from your local priest before trying to convert anyone.
God be with you and yours.
rookdygin (24 stories) (4458 posts)
14 years ago (2008-12-09)
Martin, and all other Moderators,

May I respond 'in kind' to Peter1589's last post? He makes some very sound statements and I feel he is owed a response that is as every bit thought out and specific as his latest is.


peter1589 (1 stories) (10 posts)
14 years ago (2008-12-09)
I'm very sorry to all of you, but what happened happened. My historic experience in posting this information has solely been widespread ridicule and each and every one stating only what their OPINION is, as if one's own opinion will suffice for salvation.

Don't forget that Christ told us when we have a difficulty to try to convert the sinner; if that fails take a witness; if that fails, tell the Church; and if that fails treat him like a heathen. So if He stated the singular term, Church, there therefore *MUST* be ONE Church.

Further, there must be a reason that, no matter what misinformation is spread in PROTEST-ant circles about what the Catholic Church teaches, (a) they never really go seek out what the Catholic Church ITSELF says it teaches (thus relying on hearsay in support of one's own personal opinion); and (b) for some strange reason the Holy Roman Catholic Church still stands undistilled while all the others have consistently and constantly diluted into (a) national identities (Russian Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Syrian Orthodox, etc) or the traditions of men such as Luther, Knox, Wesley, Calvin, Henry VIII, Mary Baker Eddy, etc., etc., etc.

If you want to know what the Catholic Church teaches, why believe stories from those with an avowed purpose to PROTEST against the Church? It *IS* called PROTESTantism, isn't it? So go to the Church. Read the Catechism on line at the website of the Holy See, visit, turn on the radio or the TV at Eternal Word Network ( and listen to them. They are BRILLIANT.

That the Holy Roman Catholic Church remains is completely unexpectable, given human nature's proclivity to redefine, reform and digress down into one's own primal feelings. Witness, if you will, how many of you present your replies and rebuttals as "In my opinion," or "this is my opinion on myself alone," or "that's all that matters to me" and the like. And yet the Church was withstood for 2,000 years all the efforts of armies, diseases, political intrigue, monetary reversals, the Huns, the Goths, the Aryians, the communists... No matter WHAT the world has hurled against the Church, IT REMAINS AND ALL OTHER FORMS OF CHRISTIANITY DILUTE AND DISTILL INTO FRAGMENTS ATTEMPTING TO BE THE TRUTH, BUT FAILING AND DILUTING OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND REFORMING OVER AND OVER AND OVER. IS THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT DIVIDING THEOLOGY?

What did Christ say:

7:24. Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock,

7:25. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock.

7:26. And every one that heareth these my words and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand,

7:27. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof.

7:28. And it came to pass when Jesus had fully ended these words, the people were in admiration at his doctrine.

In short, it's all about me, not what God states, not what Christ states, not what the Church states, not what the Blessed Virgin states, but all about... ME.

Can you see where that leads to, when Christ Himself states, "Many in that day will cry 'Lord, Lord,' but I will say begone you who work iniquity, I NEVER KNEW YOU."

And how does Christ "know" us? In the Eucharist, eating His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity as directed in John 6, and supported after the Resurrection by the disciples on the road to Ammaus where they knew Him in the "breaking of the bread" and by St. Paul who states, "10:15. I speak as to wise men: judge ye yourselves what I say.

10:16. The chalice of benediction which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?

Which we bless... Here the apostle puts them in mind of their partaking of the body and blood of Christ in the sacred mysteries, and becoming thereby one mystical body with Christ. From whence he infers, ver. 21, that they who are made partakers with Christ, by the eucharistic sacrifice and sacrament, must not be made partakers with devils by eating of the meats sacrificed to them.

10:17. For we, being many, are one bread, one body: all that partake of one bread.

One bread... Or, as it may be rendered, agreeably both to the Latin and Greek, because the bread is one, all we, being many, are one body, who partake of that one bread. For it is by our communicating with Christ, and with one another, in this blessed sacrament, that we are formed into one mystical body; and made, as it were, one bread, compounded of many grains of corn, closely united together."

And then he speaks again, "11:25. In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood. This do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.

11:26. For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come.

11:27. Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.

Or drink... Here erroneous translators corrupted the text, by putting and drink (contrary to the original) instead of or drink.

Guilty of the body, etc., not discerning the body, etc... This demonstrates the real presence of the body and blood of Christ, even to the unworthy communicant; who otherwise could not be guilty of the body and blood of Christ, or justly condemned for not discerning the Lord's body.

11:28. But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice.

Drink of the chalice... This is not said by way of command, but by way of allowance, viz., where and when it is agreeable to the practice and discipline of the church.

11:29. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

11:30. Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you: and many sleep.

11:31. But if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

And there again is verification of the True Presence and the need for confession before receiving Christ in the Eucharist.

But, knowing that this will be ridiculed, disparaged, dismissed and rebuked, it is my only statement. Sorry, Whitebuffalo, but my experience in being banned when I *REALLY* get going is not worth the effort.

Trust me, you don't want to argue with someone who has experienced Hell and strives with all his might to convince others futilely. I'll be praying for you all, and if I can just stay out of mortal sin, which I cannot, maybe my prayers will be heard by God.

God bless you all and I love you.
DeviousAngel (11 stories) (1910 posts)
14 years ago (2008-12-03)
I must say that I am very proud of many of the responses here, and I find them to be well-versed and well-thought out. I agree with what's been said by most others. I believe all religions ultimately follow a path to the Divine, and no one group can be called completely right or completely wrong.

I support those individuals who live the most decent life they can, love others, not pass judgment on others, attempt to understand the natural world and live at least semi-harmoniously with it, and do not try to force their rituals and beliefs on others. It doesn't matter what religion or philosophy they identify themselves with. Let it be Catholic, Jehovah's Witness, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Taoist, Atheist, Gnostic, what have you. If they are peaceful and good people, that's all that matters to me.

Warmest blessings,

whitebuffalo (guest)
14 years ago (2008-12-02)
What I personally find most interesting is that there are those who, when a child is born, will go to a psychic, or a medium, to see if their child is harboring the spirit of a passed loved one. THAT, I think, is telling in so many ways.
Another thought (from my "circle of friends"), BIRTH is still a very magical, intimate, gentle, PURE thing. To bring in a paranormal personality to detect this, to some, would seem to be "testing the fates" EVEN if the person is not one to believe in "the fates". And would go against all that is right and Holy.
I personally, do not know the difference. It is MY thought that ALL people have an everlasting ENERGY (thus, the "lights" above certain grave sites). I personally have problems distinguishing between one that has been around for quite some time, and one that is about ready to rejoin the masses. I, personally, feel agelessness when encountering beings. I CAN NOT tell that it was, say seven years old, UNLESS the being supplies that for me.
I am just making this explanation a bit more confusing, right? Sorry.

Pardon the interruption, again, Peter.
succubiluv (1 stories) (365 posts)
14 years ago (2008-12-01)
Thanks for the info, whitebuffalo.
'Tis true most folks want to know of the deceased, especially their own.
whitebuffalo (guest)
14 years ago (2008-12-01)
Standing on tradition, Excuse me please, Peter while I answer this question on your page.

St. Giovanni Melchior Bosco (Founder of the Salesian Society, also known as either St. John Bosco or Don Bosco) had a soft spot for young prisoners. Children confined in these places, abandoned to the most evil influences, and with little before them but the gallows, made such a indelible impression upon St. Bosco's mind that he resolved to devote his life to the rescue of these unfortunate outcasts. December, 1841, he rescued a young Bartolomeo Garelli, who became Bosco's first student. They, together, brought in MORE students, and formed an "Oratory" to "serve" the street children. In February, 1842, the Oratory numbered twenty boys. Come March, 1846, four hundred. Not bad for the boys being "no good".
By 1888, over SIX THOUSAND young men had walked through the halls to emerge into Priesthood.
Don Bosco BEGAN as the chaplain of the Rifugio ("Refuge"), a girls' boarding school.
There is SO MUCH more that I can state about this man, but the most important facts to remember is that he was alive in the 1800's, and was a Roman Catholic of the
Anglican Communion.

Craig and Jane Hamilton-Parker, affectionately known as the TV psychics (which is astounding, as together they have authored and had published in excess of fifteen books), do not use their religion as a platform in which to be heard.
That is NOT to say that Don Bosco DID, it is only that HIS first "foot in the door" was THROUGH his walk in his religion. The Hamilton-Parkers "foot in" was The Big Breakfast Show, out of the UK, in which after nine months they were known to have many more predictions to be accurate, then they did to be wrong.
They are MEDIUMS, not psychics solely. There are those that would say that there IS a difference. Mediums tend to speak with those on the Other Side. AFTER life. Psychics tend to speak to ALL entities that are around, including those yet to be born.

It is MY opinion, and my opinion only, that people SEEM to care more for the loss of a loved one, then in learning when the next heir will be born.
Have you ever watched a "psychic" show on the telly? MOST people will ask about the parent who passed away recently, the love that they lost years previously, about future jobs, spouses. MOST often they do NOT ask about future children. In that PEOPLE ask those questions about their loved ones, THAT is what the psychics "go for" first. IF someone should ask, and they CAN, the psychic will answer what is available.
As MOST people are more concerned for those who have passed, that is what is documented. There HAVE been a few cases of births that have been predicted, but not documented as SO much could happen in between the time of an announced birth, and the event.
Sorry about all the history, you did not ask about that, but it IS interesting. To some.
Just my opinion.
Anyone else?
succubiluv (1 stories) (365 posts)
14 years ago (2008-12-01)
One small item, and I'd like to get your view particularly on this whitebuffalo: I looked at the site. It tells of a series of death predictions credited to St. Don Bosco.

The divine origin of such predictive powers might be somewhat blurred, though, when considered alongside cases like that recorded by Craig and Jane Hamilton-Parker.

This couple is well-published in the paranormal field of psychic experiences.
They report a case of death predictions given through a Ouija board, one of which involved their 17-year old son, 3 of which have come true (unless more current info on this case adds others to the 5 predicted deaths).

That only deaths would be predicted by a professed agent of salvation as opposed to births or other positive human events always looks suspicious to me, since the biblical record contains both instead of only the one.
What do you think...?
whitebuffalo (guest)
14 years ago (2008-12-01)
Hmm. Thanks anyway, Peter.
It WAS an interesting read, and DID have me thinking.
sylviessweeties (135 posts)
14 years ago (2008-11-29)
My 1st child and daughters name is Lilike it is Hungarian for Lily. She is very lucky to be here!

Hungarian Quote about Flowers:

Take care of flowers And open up your heart Because if you love them Your soul must be nice"... Sandor Petofi Hungarian Poet

Here is a biblical quote about lillies

Matthew 6:26 Christ pointed his disciples to the flowers of the field, growing in rich profusion and glowing in the simple beauty which the Heavenly Father had given them.
As an expression of his love to man. He said, "Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow." The beauty and simplicity of these natural flowers, far outrival the splendor of Solomon.
The most gorgeous attire produced by the skill of art cannot bear comparison with the natural grace and radiant beauty of the flowers of God's creation.
whitebuffalo (guest)
14 years ago (2008-11-29)
So, Peter,
Could you please come back to answer the FEW questions and comments that you had concerning your ENCOUNTER? I would be interested in knowing your thoughts on THOSE.
Thank you.
BrokenTree (76 posts)
14 years ago (2008-11-28)
Dear God,
Protect me from your followers. Amen.

It's short and to the point. No one knows which religion is best. I don't think that the Creator really cares what religion you belong to just so long as you believe.
nich (4 stories) (30 posts)
14 years ago (2008-11-28)
being good doesn't mean that you have to look for whatever religion he/she is into but on how he/she lives. One thing I believe (this is my opinion on myself alone) religion can't save me, it's my "faith" on God that can save me. As long as I don't do any bad things to anyone, that's fine for me. I'm raised as a Roman Catholic, but even me have so many questions left unanswered. I know we do seek for answers for every questions we have but sometimes it will lead us to more questions. I agree to DUnknown, religious debate will last forever. Each and everyone has it's own beliefs and that's to be respected.
Luca (1 stories) (83 posts)
14 years ago (2008-11-27)
Hello Peter, (a name fit for one so faithful, by the way).

Your passion for Catholicism is quite impressive, the way you speak of religion and its benefits is an eye-opener. I assure you, the Rosary is quite powerful, there is even a beautiful story concerning Salvation through the Rosary.

With that said, my question:
Do you think God would've "permitted the veil of the spiritual world to part and allowed me to hear the voice of a demon"? I believe He wouldn't, why would God want you to feel such terror?

I think you haven't dealt with your past life, you're projecting every fear and guilt into your new-found Religion. Were you baptized? Have you been to confession?
Catholicism isn't about fear and burning in Hell if you "disobey", it's about love. Period.
succubiluv (1 stories) (365 posts)
14 years ago (2008-11-27)
The part about the strange sound in the Strange couch of the Strange home is a strange story which, strangely, reminds me of the strange old quote about truth which says "Tis strange; stranger than fiction".

But it seems so strange that the Stranges, strangely enough, won't get rid of the Strange couch, for some Strange reason.
For me, this is the strangest Strange thing about the Stranges' strange story of this strange Strange couch.
Strange occurrences indeed.
What a strange Strange story! 😊
ChrisB (6 stories) (1515 posts)
14 years ago (2008-11-27)
Im only going to say it is not religion that makes us good people but we ourselves. I think every religion is simarl to each other. But we don't have to read the bible to be good people. If we look deep down into our hearts without hesitation and find good then we all will go to a better place. Its Faith and love that keeps us strong. Thanks again for sharring. I hope to hear from you soon and take care
rookdygin (24 stories) (4458 posts)
14 years ago (2008-11-27)
There are so many well written responses here that I am quite humbled by all that I am reading.

Peter, there are good people everywhere, and a good many of them may live in regions that have never heard of Christ and his teachings. Are these good folks, who's heart and mind are of the right frame doomed to eternal damnation because they have never heard of the Catholic Church?

I hate to bring any specific Church into this but I feel this statement makes a whole lot of sense...

"We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul - We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things."

I'm sure there are those of you who know just where that quote comes from, I'm not trying to push any one Religion by posting this, but I believe the Apostle Paul had it right. You don't need to belong to any 'Church' to put those words into pratice.


rhodes68 (14 stories) (1596 posts)
14 years ago (2008-11-27)
Dear Peter, thank you for your wonderful submission-one that was written with a good intention.

You are aware of course that Christ, my savor as well as yours had once said "if we have faith, we can physically move mountains"! And yet, I have to wonder if you can make the distinction between Faith and Religion.

As an Orthodox Christian, I strongly believe that Christianity is NOT the only means to "produce good" in people and achieve Salvation!

Mormons, Muslims, Hindu, Atheists etc etc etc can also lead "virtuous lives" regardless of how frustrating that may sound to you.

The problem of Religion you see, is that Religion wishes to EXCLUDE all other religions.

In addition, you might have noticed that ALL religions use "sacred writings" as evidence of their superiority and validity proving this way that "everyone else" is DOOMED. But you see, despite the differences among the Doctrines, religions are fundamentally the SAME:

Controlling body

Obedient members



FAITH is an innate belief that isn't based on or shaped by EVIDENCE. It is the human tendency to believe in a Higher Power, or the human Soul's recollection of its Devine Origin if you wish.

The truth about Faith Peter cannot and should not be subject to what the "chosen" or "altered" scriptures confess. It is about believing in Goodness and loyalty to a Devine Order or Higher Order of things.

Let us not OPEN our mouths if it's only to speak in a parrot manner and "teach" other people's ideas as the Ultimate Truth. Lets do the Thinking and Evaluation ourselves. If "God" exists in all of us, He will show us the way to his Kingdom. Let's not be so Arrogant as to believe that a few select individuals will be the "Chosen Ones". Maybe then we can call ourselves more human or humane or virtuous.
Tonith (1136 posts)
14 years ago (2008-11-26)
I don't know if there are any demons other than the ones man hides in his inner most being. Our vanity, jealousy, envy and hatred doesn't come from a demon unless that demon is Vanity. Pride. Selfishness. It has caused man to do horrid things. You can't tell people God loves you but if you don't believe as I believe you are hellbound. I too believe in the mercy and goodness of a perfect God who isn't a reflection of man's weaknesses. That would make Him like us instead of us like Him. God forbid.
Ahimsa (18 posts)
14 years ago (2008-11-26)
Just an additional comment on the couch. I saw a message board on discussing the idea of a haunted piece of furniture and one person made a statement about it that I found humorous.

"What kind of low-rent ghost haunts a couch? I mean seriously I know every ghost can't be haunting a delapidated victorian era mansion but surely there are enough suburban subdivisions to go around, how much would it suck to end up haunting a piece of furnature for eterinety?"

FRAWIN (guest)
14 years ago (2008-11-26)
Thanks but no thanks Peter. I have very little respect for the Catholic Church or any Church for that matter that uses fear to keep people from thinking for themselves. Organized religion has caused many people not to have a personal relationship with God. I can't bring myself to believe that the God I love stoops to using fear, extortion and revenge against the ones he loves and I've always been taught that God loves everybody.

Ahimsa (18 posts)
14 years ago (2008-11-26)
On a lighter note, I found a blogger's website that has a link to a recording of the sounds the Stranges couch is making. It sound just like someone winding up an old clock.

wanderer (6 stories) (71 posts)
14 years ago (2008-11-26)
The people who have posted before me have said much of what I was thinking, much clearer then I would be able to. But I would like to share two stories that show my feelings about faith and religion.
The first happened about 8 years ago. My father was very sick. My family are all Christians except for an aunt and uncle on my mothers side who are Hindu. They became adopted family after they immigrated from India. When my auntie was told about dads illness she said she would pray for him, even though they wouldn't be the type of prayers we knew. My Grandma told her "Our prayers are different, but in the end its the same God who hears."
The second story happened last year at my Grandpas funeral. My aunt and uncle were in India at the time and unable to make it back, so another couple came to represent the Indian community. This elderly couple had never even been inside a Christian church before. After the service they came up to my mother and me and said that, as they hadnt known what to do during the service, they had just sat in the pew and said prayers for my Grandpa. My mom told them much the same thing that my grandma had said 8 years earlier.
In the end I feel much like the older generations of my family. I do believe in God, but I think leading a good life, being kind, and helping others is much more important to Him then the way you pray. But, let's face it, its something we'll only know for sure after we're dead.
whitebuffalo (guest)
14 years ago (2008-11-26)
Good metaphor, Hoochler.
Nicely illustrated.

I had to come back and check this one out as I had hoped that Peter had replied some, but I got to reading through this one more time, and I HAVE to ask.
Do you mind, Peter, in telling me which "break off" that you are referring to in reference to the Catholic Church? I mean, SAYING you are a Catholic really does not tell us where you are coming from. Honestly.
Are you referring to the Roman Catholic Church? The Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Old Catholic, Anglican, or one of the others that have claim broken Apostolic Succession from the early Church? I am NOT being sarcastic, or trying to appear rude, I am honestly curious.
As all of the listed Catholic affiliations ARE part of the Catholic faith, any one of them could be the church that you are referring to, BUT, not all of them worship in the same manner as the next. They BEGAN as Roman Catholic, found fault in portions of the church, and broke off to create churches of different names (the Lutheran church is included in the UNbroken Apostolic Succession, but ARE still considered, by some, to still be a part of that church).
You chose to use Sister Josefa Menendez as an example of someone "chosen by Christ as the most miserable example of a human being He could find in order to use her weakness to save souls", but her story is truly a remarkable one, and one that got buried when one of the "most glorious saints of all time", Saint Faustina Kowalska, came on the scene and performed much of the same tasks as Sister Josefa did, only at a later date.
"Sister Josefa Menendez played a critical role cultivating the soil of the Catholic Church for quick acceptance of the devotion to the Divine Mercy. Sister Josefa was chosen by God to prepare the way for the universal acceptance of the Devotion to His Divine Mercy, and was His first "messenger" for it. Her publications circulated the world. For many decades, the official devotion to the Divine Mercy was repressed, and forbidden by the Vatican to be promulgated. Christ USED the work of Sister Josefa, and her writings, to cultivate the soil of the Catholic Church." (There's your New, partly paraphrased, mostly directly quoted)
Sounds to me like she hit on a bit of bad luck, but in the end, she must have been following HER OWN FAITH to have been able to be used so well.
"They are saints for a grave reason, having shared in the sufferings of Christ in the most exponential manner possible." Saints are NOT chosen as they have passed away. The process of waiting until they HAVE passed is in order give perspective on the candidate. There has to be evidence of one miracle, an exception IS made in the case of a martyr. Martyrdom does NOT mean that you become a Saint. In the eyes of the Catholic Church, "you are called by God to be one yourself." EVERY one is a Saint. We only have to prove it in life.

So, again, I feel that what you experienced, was just another one of the MANY tests that people of faith go through to solidify, and to STRENGTHEN their faith. Baptists are tested. Pentecostals, Buddhists, Hindus, Shintos, Jews, PEOPLE of faith are OFTEN tested.
Tests do NOT all have to be "bad", some of our tests that appear "good" are to test our resistance to greed.
Thank you.
Hoochler (1 stories) (263 posts)
14 years ago (2008-11-26)
Before I explain what I have to say on this, I want to say that although I think peter1589 is a misguided puppet, I do not think for a second that he means anything wrong. I think he is honestly worried about everyone that has not drank his particular flavor of Kool Aid, and he is just trying to get as many others to drink the same Kool Aid he has. In his own way, he is trying to help others and I respect that.

I am always leery of ANYONE who says that they or their faction have all the answers. Especially when that is mixed with fear (I think it's a fair paraphrase to say the basic message of peter1589 is basically "believe and act upon what I say or you are going to be tortured for the rest of eternity").

My mom says things like that as well. It's funny, because she insists that I need to subscribe to her Christian faction or I will go to Hell. I specifically asked her about Catholics (in the past, not because of this post), and she said that since they worshiped idols they weren't Christians and they were all in trouble. I think that is a load of crap (the part that all Catholics are going to Hell) just as I think what the Catholics offer is a similar load of crap. How many religions are there out there that say this same message "believe in what we say or you are going to be tortured for the rest of eternity"? How can one be safe, believe in all of them? By definition, if any of them are right, only one of them is right. That means that BY DEFINITION most of the religions that say this type of message are wrong. I personally think they are all wrong on this point.

The basic logic I adhere to is from a similar vein to what succubussed expressed. That any God who would torture (or even allow to be tortured on His behalf by other entities) someone for an eternity for deeds (or lack of deeds) they did while alive for a few short years (even 100 years is a blink of an eye compared to ETERNITY) with no clear guidance and understanding directly from that God on how to behave (nothing that is touched by men in any manner is by definition not directly from God) would indeed be a monster.

Think about it, what would be the point of life? To see how many souls pass some unspoken loyalty test in the gladiator pit of Earth? No thanks on that.

If you were to be able to create a vat of germs that had different choices available to them, and some of the germs that you created made choices you didn't approve of, would it even cross your mind to put those offending germs into eternal damnation once they died (even if you directly told them not to do whatever it was that bothered you)? I am not near as loving and forgiving as the God I pray to is, and such a thought would not be within my vocabulary of action were I in this position and I know it's not within His either. Needless to say, the reason I worship my God is because He is loving, nurturing and forgiving, not because I am afraid He will whack me with His big bad Hell stick. I do not even believe that there is a place called Hell where people can go when they die, but there are lower frequency planes where negative spirits reside that do not have our best interests in mind. I will not clutter this post up repeating myself, please see this post for more on souls, Heaven and Hell.


I chose to use germs in my analogy because that was the best thing I could think of that would even begin to approximate the vast difference in power/stature that exists between us and God and still be able to make my point. I obviously don't think people are germs for those who do not understand the use of metaphor in speech.

For what its worth Peter1589, I do agree with you that there are hosts of entities eager to pounce upon chances to interact with us humans and most of these spirits do not have our best interests in mind. That is why this site (YGS) exists, to help people who are being bothered by such entities as well as to educate others who can learn vicariously from the experiences of others.

So, by using BASIC logic, it has been shown that most religions (all but one) that profess to have all the answers are wrong. I carry that one step further and say that no one on Earth has all the answers (in fact, that is WHY WE ARE HERE, to learn and get answers). Since no one on Earth has all the answers, certainly a loving God would not punish anyone (most especially for all eternity in unthinkable torment) for thinking for themselves with the brain He gave them.

Even without the basic logic I espouse here, there is always the pointed arguments of the type succubiluv makes that show the hypocrisy that <insert organized religion name here> Catholicism (which seems particularly easy to pick on) can bring to the table.

I truly do thank you for your concern Peter1589, but I prefer to do my own thinking with the brain that God gave me.

loopy666 (2 stories) (7 posts)
14 years ago (2008-11-26)
oh my gosh. Weren't you terrified. I don't know how I would have coped.
It is very well believed in the paranormal world that the devil and his servants roam the earth and so I decided to do a little bit of back ground information. To anyone who may read this beware of the name, lilim. It means 'servant of the devil' and is given to all in his service. It is a fate not wished on anyone and to hear it said aloud by one of them, or the devil itself, could prove fatel. When receiving a message from the lilim you must prepare your self to cover your ears quickly if it word is about to be said. You have been warned now so please please please heed by advice and beware.
Once again you must be so brave, I think I would have fanited dead away. And by the way, would you advise becoming a catholic. It has been praying on my mind for a long time but I don't think I would like the develish messages if that is what it would lead to. Please reply and thanks for sharing this story.
succubiluv (1 stories) (365 posts)
14 years ago (2008-11-26)
I agree with the "pandemic secularism" phrase, as far as it points to the prevailing materialistic mindset of society in general.
The offer of Catholicism as a universal soulsaving option, however, more than qualifies this story as a paranormal experience of the most frightening kind.

I have problems with a system of religious belief whose leader is historically pagan from his hat down to his slippers AND shoes.
Though denied by supporters, Catholicism is so deeply rooted in paganism at so many points within its doctrine and practice that it becomes impossible to seperate the two belief systems.

For example, the famous book by Alexander Hislop called "THE TWO BABYLONS" examines the origin of Roman Catholic rituals, practices, and doctrines; direct connections with Egyptian and Babylonian religious beliefs and practices are shown, from papal clothing to ritual traditions central to the Catholic religion.

Many other sources reveal the origin of the cross, the papal hat, the Mass, etc., as being of completely pagan origin.
Besides this, any religion with historical landmarks in its past such as the Catholic Inquisition, Nazi support (Hitler was raised in a Catholic family and was never expelled from the Church), and the selling of indulgences would appear less a savior of the world than a liability thereto.

The more recent pandemic of homosexual molestations within the Church, with few if any of the guilty parties being subjected to appropriate discipline, poses disturbing questions.
How is it that a religious institution that has to fight so hard within to save itself qualifies as a divine instrument for the saving of others?
And how can a religion based on the very paganisms it profesess to transcend be trusted as the holistic solution to the spiritual crises of this world?
Succubussed (guest)
14 years ago (2008-11-26)
So, Peter1859, you believe in a "Loving" God who tortures people unbearably for eternity in order to punish them for things they did as mortals that did not have this God's level of understanding?

A God like that would be a Monster.

And you want other people to worship this Monster?
DUnknown (4 stories) (65 posts)
14 years ago (2008-11-26)
This will be an epic... A religious debate.
But for everyone to know, no one can prove which religion is better. And a debate of this matter will go centuries without leading to some rightful conclusion.
Hence, debating on this will just make us weaker against those beings with bad intentions. They are always watching us, waiting for an opening-to attack. This will cause confusion... Deception...

"The Mind is very powerful, so powerful that it can mislead us in telling the truth or concealing lies."

People always debate over this matter, and believe me, they gained nothing.
I suggest to delete this story, as well as the comments, before a religious war takes over.

"Faith is a powerful tool, as we know, but having a strong faith will also be tested."

This is a site for sharing stories and for people seeking answers or help. We are here to learn and be guided... Be warned, perhaps? Know how to react in different situations.
This site was uploaded for us to benefit from it, learn from it, and gain from it.
I hope an appropriate manner will take action soon.

Best Regards to everyone & YGS Community;

Surya (39 stories) (867 posts)
14 years ago (2008-11-26)
Very well said Whitebuffalo but I am going to refrain from making a comment without knowing what religion Peter1589 was born into. I have my reasons for wnating to know.
whitebuffalo (guest)
14 years ago (2008-11-26)
Sorry, I just "caught" something I missed. When I typed "A DAILY physical walk with our Crater." I DID mean Creator.
Surya (39 stories) (867 posts)
14 years ago (2008-11-26)
Woo woo woo, am I reading this right? You are asking us to convert to the Catholic Church? I would Like to know what religion you were before you converted before I entertain this story anymore.
whitebuffalo (guest)
14 years ago (2008-11-26)
Whoo Hoo! THANKS Martin!
Here goes...
Interesting thought, peter1589, that the vast majority of those living here on Earth seem to have forgotten the Creator, and therefore we are experiencing Spiritual awaking. Very interesting. I think THAT sentence pointed out the "absurdity" of that comment.
HOW can you forget the Creator, thereby REPLACING that with Spiritual experiences? Interesting.
I find it fascinating that you should state that in those who MAY be having Spiritual encounters that they "may be a device of the devil to take advantage of catechized folks who find the demonic merely a curiosity". The DEFINITION of catechized is:to question with reference to belief. I can HONESTLY say with a clear conscience, that I have not read an account on here YET, that did not cause SOMEONE to question with REFERENCE to their own PERSONAL belief system.
I think MANY people on this site MAY be astounded to learn something out of my past, that I do not, as of yet, feel comfortable sharing. I am closer to this story line than what MANY would think, but I HAVE to disagree with your second to last sentence.
WE have NO CLUE what the "real church" is. We have heard the history of religion ("we" is used generically, in reference to those who have studied the many religions of the world) and the BREAK OFF's that created the many variations. The absolute FACT in the matter is that NO ONE alive today, was there when the first "religion" was formed.
It is MY personal belief that if there WERE a "perfect religion" it would support the life that Adam and Eve had BEFORE the first sin. A DAILY physical walk with our Crater. A daily personal conversation with our Father. A daily COMMUNION with Him.
There WAS no title to this form of religion. "Religion" is "a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. When considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs." ( or, "A religion is a set of tenets and practices, often centered upon specific supernatural and moral claims about reality, the cosmos, and human nature, and often codified as prayer, ritual, or religious law. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and religious experience. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction." (Wikipedia)
Read through that last one from the Wikipedia again. "encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and religious experience." Hmm. CULTURAL traditions and PERSONAL faith.
You can not possibly expect all persons who read your account to unquestionably convert over to Catholicism as a direct result.

Let me suggest to you what may have happened that night that you were given the opportunity, and "God permitted the veil of the spiritual world to part". It DOES happen to many people who are going through a religious revival.
It would appear that at the beginning of this account, you were a "floater". You clearly state that the experience in NY caused your conversion. Once you began studying on the religion, gathering information, becoming stronger in that faith, YOU were assaulted by the dark side, just as EVERY PERSON who chooses to follow the path of The Father.
There is a Spiritual war going on, and has been since that first bite of sin. Two sides are trying to gain the rights to our souls. Fortunately, only one side has that unalienable right. The other "team" merely wishes to change our minds.
We were created with free will for a reason. While I DO pray that all are "right with their Higher Power" and able to share in the joy of our REAL communion after death, I do not feel that we can FORCE others to believe as WE do.
FAITH is personal. You can not be religious without faith. But FAITH is personal, and "almost universally refers to a trusting belief in a transcendent reality, or else in a Supreme Being and said being's role in the order of transcendent, spiritual things." PERSONAL.
You HAVE to BELIEVE it, to LIVE it.
Thank you for sharing your experience. Hang onto your seat, because this one just may be rocky.
Thank you.
Martin (602 posts) mod
14 years ago (2008-11-26)
I just want to say that I am aware this story may be controversial and the author is heavy on the "converting" side, so since he opened the door to religious comments, feel free to have a heated debate. Normally we don't allow proselytizing comments in other people's stories, out of respect for their culture, religion and experience, but he's doing it in his own story, so go ahead.

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