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DARKNESS (3 stories) (2022 posts)
+2
12 years ago (2010-08-13)
That sounds awesome Martin goodwork will look forward to seeing this come about.

Dan
Martin (602 posts) mod
+6
12 years ago (2010-08-13)
Pendragon, it's in the works... Not as easy as it sounds, but it I've gotten the requests 😉
Pendragon (6 stories) (296 posts)
+2
12 years ago (2010-08-13)
A good debate is always nice, Granny. I try to be as polite as I can, if people are being polite in return. If they're not being nice to me, well, I tend to be rude back. Hopefully the author sees something that can help them somewhere in the midst of all this.

I vote Martin makes a discussion board for topics such as these; so that we don't take up so much space debating. I love to debate, and wish we had somewhere to do it. 😢

Penny ❤
zzsgranny (18 stories) (3327 posts) mod
+3
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
MCP and Penny: I wholeheartedly agree with all of your points, specially that not every entity is a demon... I believe that what helps is the faith one has in whatever method they choose to use... I think our job as advisors is to guide wayward posters to discover exactly what THEIR personal belief is... This can only be accomplished by offering several options to the author... And I hope you can agree with me when I say that sometimes OUR methods may put someone in a more dangerous predicament if their faith in our ways isn't there...

I have to commend all of you for the display of etiquette in your current discussion... Quite refreshing! 😆...JimD and I agreed to disagree a long time ago 😆...And still, I won't hesitate to give him kudos when I read a heart felt thank-you from someone I failed to assist... Or recommend him to some one who is obviously of the Christian faith, when I know my voo-doo witch-doctor new-age mo-jo methods aren't going to do a damn thing for them! LOL...

JimD: Hi there!...I've been here, just keeping my big mouth shut most of the time!...Haven't seen you on here much lately!...Hope that's not a sign that you're too busy in you chosen career! ❤
JimD (431 posts)
 
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
MCP;

Two more points, in charity, 1. These people are already in trouble, and 2. The Arch diocese of New York and Rockville Centre (Long Island) are the third and sixth, respectively, biggest dioceses in the USA. Do you know how many exorcists are assigned? ZERO, and that's a big problem. I pray that changes, but it may take some time, in fact many years.

All the feed back has, in fact, been positive; either total, or at least partial, relief. By their fruits you will know them. Yes? Sorry to post again, I always think of stuff after the fact. Stay well. JD
Pendragon (6 stories) (296 posts)
+1
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
It's not that the advice isn't appreciated, Jim, but more-so the pushing of the beliefs that is not as welcome. I can't pray to the Catholic god and mean anything. Holy artifacts don't always work for those that don't believe.

Penny ❤
JimD (431 posts)
+1
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
Hi Granny;

What's up? It's been a while! Glad to hear from ya. I hope you and yours are well. Miss ya.

Hi MCP;

Your post is well researched, but only half correct. Your post refers to formal exorcisms of people - not places. The local Ordinary, i.e. A Bihop with regular canonical jurisdiction, in the Western (Not Eastern) Church, can authorize a formal exorcism of A PERSON. I'm referring to places, not persons.

Canonically speaking, Pope Leo XIII's directive can only be, and has never been, overturned by a sucessive pope - none of which has chosen to do so. Therefore, lay faithful may still recite the Pope Leo XIII prayer "when ever and where ever the actions of the Devil are suspected". This is in addition to & in agreement with Jesus' words in the Gospel.

You will find no pope, who counterveined this statement. If so, get it to me - it doesn't exist. My priest / pastor teaches that the sacramentals, i.e. Holy water, are VASTLY under used by lay faithful. Why not use the tools in our arsenal? He's 100% correct.

Penny;

My advise is simply what has helped many others. Use it, if and when you choose to. It's there for you, as am I, should it ever get ugly, which...we'll see. No coersion. That is up to you, ok? But I hope all stays well.

PS I won't stay in this 'ministry' forever - it takes a toll on you, both spiritually and psychologically. I'm not burnt out, but that day will come. God bless you all. Dukes2352atAOL.com.
Pendragon (6 stories) (296 posts)
+2
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
Granny - Like I said, I have no doubt that prayer and some holy water helps the people of Christian/Catholic faith. I am not of that faith, and thus it probably would not work for me, as I do not believe it would. I could fill a bottle with tap water, and pretend it was holy water, and it would probably work as well for me as the real thing.

To top it off, I told him about the ghost in my basement in a couple emails now, and he's telling me to pray to Mary, and to get holy water, because the little prank-loving, runs up and down the stairs in the night ghostie that I have is "demonic", because he creates cold spots, and interferes with my light bulbs. My ghost has been around for at LEAST 5 years. I'm sure if he was demonic, he would have acted out by now. Cold spots are caused by any spirit, and electricity drain in one room is also a sign of... Just a spirit. Any Ghost Investigator can tell you that. Fred's actually chased OFF malicious spirits. I'm not worried about him.

I just don't want people, like me, who are agnostic, to have to feel that the only thing on Earth that can save them is a bit of water and some words (that's really all they are to me; Sorry - no intent to offend). I've been sent/told some of Jims' stories, and they seem credible. I jut don't think holy water and prayers work for everyone. I don't think they can, for those of us that believe differently. It's not meant to. This is why I believe that there are many "gods" as opposed to one - the people that practice Wicca find that the Goddess helps them with their problems and evil ghosts. My boyfriend prays to the Egyptian Gods, and it helps him get through tough times. I pray to the Greek Gods, and I usually get the answers I'm looking for, through Tarot or dreams, which was common for Oracles and many Ancient Greek citizens. It sounds corny, but this is my theory.

No one feels threatened in my house; they feel welcome and safe. I never mention Fred to first time guests, and they don't mention feeling creeped out or scared, just safe, welcome, happy. Not every shadow person is demonic, and can be dispelled by catholic methods.

DANG NAB IT, I RANTED!

Penny 😭
MyChaoticPeace (1 stories) (108 posts)
 
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
zzsgranny-

Thats exactly what I gave Believer for advice I agree whole heartedly:)

I'm not saying that it may not work for some. I'm simply saying it could be dangerous and it's not the way it's supposed to be done. It wouldn't be safe for a everday person to have at a real potentially powerful demon. They tend not to play nice when someone attempts to drive them away... I'm glad they've been lucky thus far, but I feel very worried for the person he suggests this to that gets into trouble.
zzsgranny (18 stories) (3327 posts) mod
+3
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
77believer: I personally don't think there is enough info for any one to determine whether your friend is being haunted or not... Just a suggestion, always be skeptical, and LOOK for reasonable explanations before assuming events are paranormal... When all explanations can be ruled out, then turn to paranomal...

Have your friend keep a journal of any and all events that occur along with the date, time, and weather conditions... This will help, trust me... Also have your friend write down their thoughts as to what they think may have caused such an occurance, and what investigating revealed...

Penny, MCP, and Aaron, you might not believe me, but I have witnessed on another story a comment by JimD that had nothing at all to do with demons!...Right Jim?...And being the smart A** that I am I asked if it was really him... 😆...And in good humor he replied yes...Actually, there are other posters on here that have returned to say that JimD's advice was the only one that worked for them...

I agree that this doesn't sound at all demonic to me, and I think a few protection crystals and a good sea-salt bath is what I advise if the entity seems like an angry spirit...Otherwise, if it ain't broke don't fix it! 😆 ❤
MyChaoticPeace (1 stories) (108 posts)
+2
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
JimD-
...thank you I like to think of myself as good.

They are also the most basic symptoms of a normal spiritual haunt. But this particular story has all the symptoms of a bad waking dream and a house settling in its foundation. Just my opinion.

A Priest will bless a house if you ask. You don't need to involve the complex chain of the Catholic Hierarchy for something like that. If, however, you have a true powerful demon that would call for an actual exorcism you would start the steps to have someone come to investigate and get the proper permission.

If you don't know that people have a strong faith or what they're belief is do you really think it's a good idea to have them tango with something other worldly? If you know there could be a dangerous demon, if you don't have the right amount of faith and you 'tick it off' it could go very sour very fast. Prayer and hanging crosses is one thing but spread holy water and calling it out on your own isn't exactly what they want you to do. Any practicing Priest or spiritual advisor wouldn't suggest you attempt to do things like that on your own. Can we try if we really want to? Yes, They can't really watch everyone and jump in to stop us. Do they think it's the best idea? No. If one honestly thinks there is a demon in their home they all say the same thing, talk to a priest. Further more not just 'anyone' can do it like you've suggested... In the Catholic religion an exorcist is a bishop or a priest appointed by him. He has to get a special permission to perform exorcisms every single time. An exorcism requires special permission of a local ordinary I.E. A bishop of the diocese. So telling just anyone on this site to 'give it a shot' to 'see if it helps' isn't helping...

Cardinal Medina - "To perform an exorcism authorization from the diocesan bishop is required, which can be given for a specific case, or rather in a general and permanent way to the priest who has the ministry of exorcist in the diocese."

"The priests who do not have a special permission from the bishop can conduct a prayer of deliverance - it is not a solemn exorcism and it does not contain formulas that address the evil spirit directly, as in the case of possession. All priests can perform exorcisms of water, oil, salt and incense."

"In recent years, services of so called lay exorcists, promising to drive out demons, are getting more and more popular. They are, for example, fortune-tellers, bioenergotherapists, clairvoyants, folk healers and others. Sometimes they claim to act within the Church, or that they possess authorizations or qualifications. First of all, it must be said that lay exorcists act in opposition to the Church."

(All quotes thus far accurate as of 2008)

All Anointed and Faithful followers can, when in dire need participate in deprecatory "exorcism". This means no commands or addressing the 'demon' directly, no actual 'driving out' of said demon. Your basically just looking for in the moment protection to escape. You pray to God, Jesus, the Virgin Mary, St. Michael or the like and they, in our stead, order or command for us.

Only Exorcists can perform a imprecatory exorcism, which of course would be using direct commands to the devil (or demon). This would be the act of 'driving out' or 'attacking' the demon head on. This is done by someone with explicit permission.

I'm sorry that you've been called nasty things, but I tend to stay away from childish name calling.

No intention to offend...
JimD (431 posts)
 
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
Hi Penny;

You want me to give an example? OK, I'll give one. I felt I'd be accused of fabrication if it came from me, and not her. Well, here's a fairly recent one: A young woman, we'll call her Mary, self - described as an agnostic, former Catholic, and current follower of a nature based religion, said her friend had a 'spirit guide', who was kind and gentle.

This guide became violent, chocking her at night and causing fear. I said, and I know you'll find it hard to believe, that it's demonic. Mary, her friend, and her friend's mom went to a Catholic Church - on the west coast of the USA. The moment Mary's friend set foot in the church, she fell down, said strange things in a strange tounge, and foamed at the mouth. So she said.

She got the priest who prayed and used holy water. This was not the end. She went to bring her friend dinner at the hospital. Mary's friend suffered a brocken collar bone from her fall in the church. (I found this odd; don't they feed you there? Maybe bad food? Haven't been in a hospital lately.)

When Mary arrived, Fr. X was already there and heard both of their confessions. Mary related that she went to hang a Crucifix on the wall, and was thrown across the room, when she heard laughter. They then all prayed the "Hail Mary", and the lights went out. Mary said she heard a loud "pop", and someone scream the "F" word. Her last email thanked me, and she said "I thing it's gone."

I would have preferred Mary (not her real name) to have posted this, but there you have it. You asked.
Aaron_G_B (37 posts)
+1
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
as would i
One problem I have noticed with the site is not so much with the site itself more from the original posters, when reading the comment you get to see all sorts of tips and advice but very rarely do you see the original poster come back and actually describe what is was that worked for them it would be nice if we could get that information as I believe it would probably help with knowing what advice to give for what circumstances and I therefore helping more people solve more problems a lot quicker but that's just my thoughts
Pendragon (6 stories) (296 posts)
+1
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
See - when someone of the same faith has a positive experience with your advice, more people would listen if the ones helped would post it. I would not leave nasty comments - If religion is truly the answer for some, then it is truly the answer. I'm not one to dispute that.

Religion just does not work for me. Perhaps you could post these accounts that you have helped with, omitting names of course, and share with us your accounts. I'm sure you would have some of us generally and wholly interested. I know I would be.

Penny ❤
JimD (431 posts)
 
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
Hi Aaron;

Yes, she was afraid if nasty comments. She'd been through a lot, and I suggested that she use the Holy water, etc. And yes, it's true I always do give similar counsel, and it finally gave her relief. I begged her to post her results (which was probably wrong of me) to show that my counsel is often sound. She did not, and I understand why. It's ok; we all (including me) need to be more charitable. I for one am trying.

Granny, another poster and fine lady, once suggested that the original poster read all the responses, and glean what works.
Aaron_G_B (37 posts)
+3
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
Im sorry to hear that JimD id like to think that people feel comfortable sharing all their experiences and the results of the advice they took it kind of bums me h=out to hear that someone wouldn't openly say how much your (or anyone elses for that matter) advice helped them hopefully its something we can work on to make people feel more comfortable sharing their experiences here
Pendragon (6 stories) (296 posts)
+3
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
Fantastic, lol. Anyway, I think for our very altered assistance to continue, we need to hear more details about what has happened, so we can decide if it's normal and like Fred, or something that should be worried about.
JimD (431 posts)
+3
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
Hey Penny & PD;

No fight at all. We just come from different places.

MCP

Brother, you're a good man. No hard feelings, at all. I'm not assuming anything of anybody. I don't jump the gun; I simply respond to tell tale signs. Fear and chaos are all over these stories, in addition to other symptoms.

The Catholic hierarchy is a mixed bag. I don't know what diocese you live in, but try getting any Church recognition for the demonic in NYS. It ain't happening, at all. If you'd like verification, call them and watch their response. I had to contact he SSPX, for a priest who takes this seriously.

Some priests do take it seroiusly; most dismiss it, in point of fact. I don't exorcise people, only places, as authorized by Pope Loe XIII, if it matters. Pope Leo XIII authorized all the faithful, including laymen like you and me, to use Holy water "when ever and where ever the actions of the Devil are suspected". Use of this sacramental is in fact greatly encouraged. The web site "www.spiritdaily.com" is a great resource. Just FYI. No hard feelings, but previously I've been called nasty names, all for trying to help, which I did for 25 people from this site. One wrote back and said that she was afraid to post how much my advice helped her for fear of new age cat calls. That is a real shame. I am a bit sensitive, but am dead on most of the time. For consideration. God bless you. Dukes2352atAOL.com.

As a layman, I know my limits.
Aaron_G_B (37 posts)
 
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
MCP indeed I agree completely with you I would simply hate to see this site start to turn into a battle ground between religions or lack of them it as it thoroughly degrade the entire site just trying to make everyones life easier
MyChaoticPeace (1 stories) (108 posts)
+2
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
Aaron_G_B-

I see what you're saying and I agree with you. My intention were never to be cruel or mean simply to state my own opinion as well. My opinion regarding his advice stands. It could be potentially dangerous and hasty.
Aaron_G_B (37 posts)
+2
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
i agree with pen and MCP that it does not sound demonic but at the same time JimD is right we should just agree to disagree on this instead of starting another argument for those of us that disagree with him it may be annoying to see all the same comments all the time but its his advice to give and it is untimately up to the poster on whos advice to take
Pendragon (6 stories) (296 posts)
+3
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
JimD - Yes, we can. Sorry for sounding mad. The over-zealous religious types get under my skin, and my first, natural response is annoyance. I appologize.

You have to understand from our views, as well. Not everything is demonic - you're a demonologist, and I respect that. I'm agnostic, as are many who visit and frequent this site. We don't like being told, repeatedly, "Holy water fixes everything". If you're agnostic, it doesn't. If you don't believe in something, it just doesn't work, and that's the truth of it. At least, in my experiance.

I'm not mad that you're religious, and I'm glad you can wear your uniform proudly. I have a great deal of family members in the RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police/Mounties), and I hope that they too wear their uniforms with pride and honour. All people in the police force/military should. It's an honourable position. I don't like to start fights, but I stand up for what I believe in. I don't believe every ghost or spirit on the planet is evil, nor the vast majority. I think the majority is good, or neutral with good intent, and the minority is evil/angry. The minority of the minority are the Demonic types, or pure evils.

This sounds confusing, even to me. Anywho, No, I don't hold a grudge. But I will continue to argue if something does not sound all that demonic to me. 😉

Penny ❤
MyChaoticPeace (1 stories) (108 posts)
+4
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
JimD -
Obtuse does not have to be an insult to someone or imply they are 'lower' it can also mean 'imperceptive' which is obviously the meaning I was intending with the context of my comments. Sorry if I offended you but there's no need to assume the worst of people.

Now JimD let's not get touchy just because I gave you my honest opinion. In my opinion, you jumped the gun and have a tendency to do so. There is no where near enough in this story to make any sure conclusions. Everything in this leans more towards normal bumps in the night way more then anything actually super natural. So please stop being so hasty.

Now I'm sorry but I do not recommend you 'drive' demons away or attempt to fight them off in any way shape or form. I find it very hard to believe you've done so with sure results. If the Catholic hierarchy takes it very seriously and investigates thoroughly before any form of exorcism I would think you'd want to do the same. They have trained spiritual professionals specifically for that. If it's a blessing for small bumps in the night or any sort of haunting, again a man of the cloth would be much more effective. Advising people to attempt to do it on their own with Holy water and blessed items is dangerous. No religious leader would recommend such a thing. Should they want to go that route at all, I'm mildly upset with the fact you'd put innocent people in danger by suggesting it rather then suggesting they contact a spiritual advisor. Really a professional should help them through that sort of situation. Surely you can understand where I'm coming from brother.
JimD (431 posts)
+3
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
Hi;

Just here to help. Yes, I have used holy water and, with help, have driven things away. I'm not implying it - I'm saying it.

Penny, I do most always say it's demonic re. These cases, because the symptoms do indicate thus. If that seems obtuse to some, I could care less. That is simply someone's snapshot opinion. I'm not calling them obtuse. Calling names lowers us.

It is what it is. These posters, mostly, are in fear and in chaotic situations. That is not good. The tell tale symptoms of demons are present, and so, therefore, is my advise. If anyone doesn't like my counsel, then don't take it. I'm here to assist, if the original poster desires. Aren't we all? 25 posters have done so with relief, but don't heed my counsel, if you don't wish to. That's cool. I wore a uniform to defend rights, not denigrate them. Again, it is demonic, in my opinion. God bless.

Doesn't everyone have an equal right to post, or do negatives get issued simply because one disagrees with another? Just curious. Can't we disagree like brothers and sisters? You know, without anger?
MyChaoticPeace (1 stories) (108 posts)
+2
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
JimD-
Whoa wait a minute. "I've handled 5 cases where no immediate attack occurred" are you implying you drove demons away from a home or person with holy water and blessed items? Or you've seen something like that happen?
MyChaoticPeace (1 stories) (108 posts)
+4
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
My goodness JimD 😲

I took a look at your comments. I don't think you have a single one that doesn't say "It's a Demon" in it... I find that to be rather... Obtuse. Perhaps instead of assuming everything sounds 'Demonic' and picking out what 'points' to that, you may want to access the story as a whole...

The writer doesn't mention scratching... Noises yes, but no description as to what the noises sound like... Only one encounter that may or may not have been a waking dream...

You're advice is rather extreme considering what is detailed, don't you think? 🤔

77Believer -
Ask your friend to start making a note every time something happens to see if there is a trend. A particular time things seem to happen more often, some one thing that happens more often then others... Since there aren't enough encounters or occurrences at this point to say anything with any sort of confidence, I couldn't begin to offer a solution or attempt to send you in any direction with any level of conviction with what's presented.
Once she starts making her notes ask her to investigate each sound. Once she does it a few times it might turn out to be something very normal she hadn't thought of yet.
If she sees the figure again, ask her to make note of the time and any strong feelings the encounter may bring out. This will help to narrow down the possibilities. Good luck!
😐
Pendragon (6 stories) (296 posts)
+3
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
77Believer, forgive me;

JimD - Did you ever stop to think that it may not be demonic, that it could just be a rather mad spirit? True demons are few and far between, and at BEST a guess as to what could happen. You do not ONCE ever say something is "just a spirit", it's ALWAYS demonic for you if it's a shadow person. Many on this site, I think, would agree with me.

I've been living, quite peacefully, with my shadow person for at least two years now, and he's harmless, occasionally letting me know he's there by walking around, or playing with toys. If he was demonic, he would have acted by now, and would NOT continue to just hang out in my basement, and my dog would not just look quizzically at space if nothing was there. She would lose her mind if it was evil or malicious, and there would be a ton of barking in my house. She loves being in the basement with me, and she chases my ghost around the house.

I will agree that some of these ghosts are angry, but I would not be so fast to cry demonic. I would love to hear your stories, and your conclusions as to why they were demons, and not simply some angry ghosts that wanted attention or help. Feel free to email them to me so that I can judge those, instead of trying to prove my point on someone elses page.

Penny 😐
JimD (431 posts)
-3
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
With respect, I don't concur. I've handled 5 cases where no immediate attack occurred. In fact, the embedding was quite subtle, and it took many months to gain a toehold. If you have another counsel, please post it; it's your right, as is mine to call this ball, as it is. God bless and good question. Jim D.
Pendragon (6 stories) (296 posts)
+3
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
JimD - why do you think everything is demonic? Demons attack immediately, they do not "test the waters". There was no scratches in the story, meerly someone moving her arm, electrical interferance, and some noises. All spirits can cause these things. If it was demonic in nature, one would be able to tell immediately. Not every ghost is evil. As the ghosts touch was not ice cold, and the friend did not feel any fear from this spirit, one can deduce that it is not evil.

77Believer - It sounds like a spirit, not evil or demonic in any way, is trying to get your friend's attention. You and her could get together, and attempt an EVP session, or call in a ghost hunting team. The TAPS website has lists of hunters in your area, and this site has such lists as well, should you and your friend not be comfortable investigating yourselves.

Blessings and holy objects and exorcisms do nothing against good or neutral spirits, and they may leave for a month, but they do come back. If your friend is content to live with her ghostie, as I am with mine, then there is no issue. Sometimes ghosts and spirits are just confused as to why no one is paying attention to them. An EVP may be actually needed in this case. Just get a hand-held tape recorder for the next time you stay at her house, and ask questions. The best place to do this would probably be her room, or the TV room that had the odd phenomenon going on with the TV.

Has anything else happened to her recently?

Penny ❤
JimD (431 posts)
-4
12 years ago (2010-08-12)
Hi;

It strongly sounds like the early stages of a demonic assault. Scratchings, noises, dark / hooded figures all point to the demonic. It may be testing the waters, so to speak. My counsel, if you care to try it, would be use of Catholic Holy water, and blessed salt, especially at night. The names of Jesus and Mary also help a lot. Good luck. Dukes2352atAOL.com.

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